My Interview With Google (Continued)
I didn't expect the story of My Interview With Google to be a two-parter, but it turns out the story didn't end where I expected.
Not too long after I made the post, it was submitted to Reddit.com where it enjoyed front-page status for two days. During that time, I got a lot of visitors and a lot of comments, some even from Google engineers.
I also got a private e-mail. It was from someone at Google. He explained that my post had been circulating around the Google office and when it got to him, it piqued his interest.
Essentially, he wanted me to come work for him in Mountain View. He was looking for Java folks for his team, and he thought I'd be a good fit. I jumped out of my chair when I read this, amazed some additional life had been breathed into my foray into the world of Google. The more I considered the e-mail, however, the more a part of me wanted to say no. Why?
His offer was essentially doing some semi-internal development for Google. I wanted to work on their web application back-ends, so that was a tad disappointing. Could that be the reason I wanted to turn him down? That didn't seem right, I had been joking for a while that I'd be happy to clean toilets at Google. Writing code is writing code.
The position was also contract-to-hire, which didn't roll my socks up and down. But I had been saying that once I got my foot in the door, I'd be alright. I knew I'd do fine at Google if I worked there, so I wasn't too concerned I wouldn't be hired permanently at the end of the contract work. No, it wasn't the contract aspect that bothered me.
He also told me that I'd have to spend three months in California doing the job. I'd then have to spend three months in California in a permanent position in order to "culturally integrate" before I could go back to Colorado and work in the Boulder office. This definitely bothered me. Since I would want to continue living in Colorado, I'd basically have to live in a hotel in California while Julia (my fiancee) stayed here in Colorado for 6 months. I just got engaged a month ago, and the idea of abandoning the family I'm just starting for Google seemed completely unfair. If I had gotten the job I originally interviewed for, I'd only have to be in CA for one week for training, so 6 months was a pretty big deal. When I told Julia, she told me that she could handle 6 months, and if I wanted to take this position I should. She was completely supportive of whatever I wanted to do. So it wasn't even the 6 months away from my home that was driving me to turn the position down.
I thought about this for days. I couldn't figure out what about the offer I didn't like, so shouldn't I take it?
Eventually I figured out what I didn't like about the situation and I turned it down. I don't think I could explain my rationale better than I did in my e-mail to the guy from Google, so here is what I told him:
I've been thinking about your e-mail for a few days and I've finally made a decision. This was not a decision I made lightly by any stretch.
Let me start out by saying thank you for e-mailing me and giving me another potential shot at Google. I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to update my blog story with this additional bit, though I won't be using your name or any details.
As I said in e-mail and via the blog post, there is no place I'd rather work than Google. Google, to me, is Mecca for software developers. Google does amazing work that improves the entire world. There is no better way to put my software development skills to use than at Google, where I'd be doing good work to make life better for countless individuals.
My personality, my desire to learn, my goal of improving the world - all of these tell me that Google would be the best place I could work. I know Google is right for me.
But am I right for Google? The interview process concluded with a resounding "no". Google decided that I am not a good fit for the company, and sent me back to Colorado. The fact that I made a funny blog post describing my journey doesn't change the fact that, from a technical standpoint, Google considers me below their standards.
Despite the conclusion of the interview, I believe I *AM* right for Google. I believe that, if I interview again after improving my algorithm skills and becoming more confident in my own abilities, Google will see that I am a good fit and hire me.
In short, I want to work at Google more than I can describe, but I want to work there because I earned it. I want to start my first day at Google knowing that I belong there, and knowing that Google knows I belong there.
As tempting as your offer is, I feel like it's sneaking into Google via a backdoor. I want to enter Google through the front door.
I intend on improving my abilities and learning new skills, as I do all the time as a developer. When I am ready, I will re-apply to Google, and hopefully I will meet you in the cafeteria during my week of training in California. :)
Thank you again for your e-mail.
I never imagined I would pass up a chance to work at Google, but there it is. I think I very well may look back and regret this, but for the time-being I'm comfortable with my decision.
This, I imagine, actually concludes this story. At least for a while.
Absolutely No Machete Juggling » Blog Archive » My Interview With Google:
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24 January 2007, 9:11 pmmrclash:
You are my hero.
I completely understand you reasons, and I will think the same; you could never stop thinking that you entered Google through the back door. Still, I’m sure that it’s been a really though decision (come on, it’s google!). Not many people would refuse an offer from them.
This demonstrates that you have very strong principles, well done.
25 January 2007, 6:27 amCharles:
Your position would make sense if getting hired was a totally scientific and logical process. While Google may think that their process is infallible, the truth of the matter is, you don’t know why you weren’t hired. You could have the same exact interview with the same exact people on a different day and they may have hired you. Interviewing is funny like that.
25 January 2007, 8:51 amZD:
It is fantastic that you stuck with your gut feeling at the end of the day.
I have sent my resume for several different (non-techie) positions at Google. So far, received one casual regret note over email.
An email like the one you received would have tempted anyone but would also leave a strange, bitter aftertaste. Well done, you will get there one day, I hope.
25 January 2007, 4:15 pmPhD:
Gimme a break! Google is just a company, and the people who interviewed you are just coders, no different from you. I don’t understand why everyone buys into this mystique they’re selling. Getting hired by Google isn’t by itself an achievement, any more than getting accepted to Stanford or Harvard is. I’m sure it’s a great place to work, but if you’ve got a chance to work there, who cares whether you got in by the back door or not? Besides, Google’s hiring methods are, like everything else they do, a high-precision/low-recall process. Pretty much everyone who gets through it will be talented, but many more talented people will get tossed out. Just like most of the results returned for a search are relevant, but you’ll never know how many relevant results didn’t get returned (hint: LOTS). As long as they get 100,000 resumes a month, they can afford to reject a lot of extremely good people.
26 January 2007, 4:26 pmshmula:
Nice blog post on your job interview with google.
@PhD is right — google is just a company. Mystique is present — yes; but, it’s just a company. I rejected their offer and since that time, they have been emailing and commenting on my blog ever since. I thought that writing about my experience and rejecting their offer would burn bridges, but apparently they don’t care that much since I still get emails from googlers.
At any event, Google is just a company. There are a gazillion other companies out there.
27 January 2007, 8:40 pmRod:
shmula, PhD:
I disagree with the sentiment that Google is a company like any other company. If all I were looking for were a job that paid me money to write code, that’d be true, but I look for far more than that when seeking employment.
For one thing, the work has to be interesting and challenging. It has to use my brain. Boring work sucks, and most jobs require code that is extremely simple and boring. Google products, because of how they work, are more interesting than that.
Moreover, the company itself is extremely important to me. When I started my job hunt, I came across hundreds upon hundreds of jobs for which I was qualified, but I rejected every single one because of the company. When the job of the company is merely to increase the bottom line for shareholders, I don’t find that work rewarding at all. A lot of java work out there is just working on financial systems doing internal development for some random company. They aren’t even IT companies that sell software or produce a software-based product, they just need some dev work for some reason or another.
I understand Google is “just another company trying to make money”, but the way they make that money is by providing an extremely valuable service to the world (a number of services, actually). That’s work I can feel good about doing. All companies exist to make money, but some companies exist ONLY to make money, and sadly a lot of Java jobs out there are for companies in the latter category.
Google isn’t “just like any other company” because most other companies don’t provide services that help the general population. At best, they provide services that help other businesses.
28 January 2007, 8:19 amshmula:
“For one thing, the work has to be interesting and challenging. It has to use my brain. Boring work sucks, and most jobs require code that is extremely simple and boring. Google products, because of how they work, are more interesting than that.”
Good point. Okay — let me rephrase: there are companies in the world that are adding value to the world; that pay well; where the work is just as or even more exciting than work you’d find at Google.
I received an offer, but I rejected it because of several reasons. There are companies that provide just as much satisfaction or even more — just without the hype.
Or, you can also start your own company. That’s always an option.
28 January 2007, 9:18 amRod:
shmula:
Yeah, there are lots of companies like that, but not in Colorado ;)
When recruiters call me, it’s for Lockheed Martin about half the time. Pass.
Google opened a new office in Colorado, and I was excited to work at a company like Google so close to my home.
28 January 2007, 10:24 amshmula:
Here’s a suggestion that I’ve found helpful: find the VC’s in your area. Check out their site and look at their portfolio companies. Select from the portfolio companies the firms that are interesting and in your desired location; don’t worry if their site doesn’t show any opening, most portfolio companies don’t. Then, figure out how to get an interview using Linkedin, or something like that. VC-backed companies might be of more interest to you than the traditional firms in the labor market.
28 January 2007, 6:45 pmSM:
That was a good Decision!!!!
29 January 2007, 10:42 pmBrandon Harper:
@shmula
Great idea. That’s somewhat similar to something I’ve recently done actually.
30 January 2007, 2:58 pmPhD:
@Rod
Those are all sensible reasons to choose a job at Google over Lockheed Martin. Fine. Having decided that you want to work there, you set up an interview to try to get a job. I’m still with you there. The interview doesn’t go as well as it might have, and they don’t offer you a position right away. But, after a little while, it turns out they do have a job for you, though it’s not quite the same as the one you interviewed for.
So, good news, right? No. You turn them down, and that’s where you lose me. The job they offered you was still doing interesting, challenging work in a stimulating environment building a product that makes everyone’s life better, right? What changed? With any normal company, if you wanted to work there and they offered you a contract with terms you liked, you’d take the job. Period. It wouldn’t matter whether they offered it to you on the first conversation or the fifth. A job’s a job, and once you’re in, no one outside of HR will remember the details of how you got hired.
Your story makes me think you didn’t really want to work at Google (or at least, that wasn’t your primary goal). What you really wanted to do is to prove to everyone that you’re *smart enough* to be Google material. You got offered a job, but since it didn’t come with the “certified google supergenius” stamp, it wasn’t good enough for you. All that stuff about challenges and social benefits is all just rationalization.
1 February 2007, 6:16 pmRod:
@PhD,
If my goal was to prove I’m “smart enough” to work at Google, I never would have made the first post, where the conclusion of the post is that I am not. ;)
I believe I made it quite clear in this post why I didn’t take the job, but to reiterate: the work wasn’t quite as interesting, I’d have had to leave my fiancee for 6 months, and it was contract work. This was simply NOT as good of a job as the one I interviewed for originally. The worst aspect, however, was that I would have started working at Google without feeling like I deserved it.
Maybe you don’t feel this way when you change jobs, or maybe it’s been so long since you’ve gotten a new job that you’ve forgotten: but when *I* start a new job, the first few weeks (sometimes months) are usually spent with me struggling. I’ve joined a place where everyone seems to know more about certain things than I do. I’m trying to understand the very basics of products they know inside and out. In short, I start out feeling a bit inferior, and it takes me some time to develop confidence to feel like I belong there. The only way I can keep myself from going crazy during this time is to keep telling myself “hey, they hired me, they must think I’m pretty good.”
If I had taken the second job, I wouldn’t have been able to tell myself this. I’d constantly feel like I was underqualified, since I snuck into the place through a blog post. “hey, they hired me, they must think I write a pretty funny blog post.”
Doesn’t really keep the confidence high enough. :)
2 February 2007, 6:55 amal-kahfi:
Rod,
Seems you’ve a long way in front of you.
Well,if you want to re-try again for the next job,how long it’ll take for re-interview?
and what skillsets that they actually want from the prospective empoloyer?
–from 3rd world country,MALAYSIA who want to work with the big G
10 March 2007, 8:00 pmal-kahfi:
sorry-it’s employee
10 March 2007, 8:01 pmi’m not an English speaking folk.
HelixOne:
Whatever the reason you were offered a job, it was soley based on your actions. It wasn’t because they felt sorry for you. They offered you a temporary job, for which you were qualified. They saw that you had the top qualities that they were looking for. 1) Desire and motivation to work at Google (As expressed in your blog) 2) the brains and skills to do the job.
Realize that they offered you a temporary position. You would still need to be interviewed to take on a permanent position.
I think this was a naive decision on your part. Your refusal to take the offer will most likely be something that you will come to regret.
(IMHO)
26 March 2007, 4:16 pmTim:
Good man. Everyone has their principles, and you chose not to bend yours to get something you wanted very badly (in the short-term). If you felt that you didn’t deserve it, then you made the right decision. It is very much in our heads how we interpret the situation and how well/poor we would perform and how guilty/not-guilty you’d feel.
Rod shows maturity and integrity by doing what he did. Good things come to those who wait. If it was meant to be, it will happen (sooner or later). Please remember not to regret, and don’t forget to dream big dreams.
Google is a unique company. Not many places offer the benefits, perks, and work environment that other places do. I’ve only been working for 3 years since I finished my undergrad but I’ve discovered what makes me happy/unhappy at work:
1. You gotta like what you’re doing - if you don’t enjoy it, why are you torturing yourself? For the money? How much happiness can money really bring you if you spend 40+ hours/week doing something you don’t like? Don’t get me wrong — money puts food on your table, and a roof over your head, but is it worth the unhappiness?
2. You have to get along well with your team/workmates & manager. If you clash with them, your life will be all that more miserable (as you spend 40+ hours with them a week — more than the time you spend awake with your wife + kids).
3. If the overall work environment is boring, mundane, and disgruntled, you will also start to feel that way. The work environment is so vital to how well an employee performs and subsequently how well a company operates.
Given the above, I understand why Rod doesn’t just want to work at “any company.” I respect his decision to “earn” (what he feels is earning) his position at Google. Something that is “earned” is much more rewarding than something that was “granted”.
26 April 2007, 8:14 pmTim:
After leaving my reply, I have a few corrections. =P
1. It is very much in our heads how we interpret the situation and how well/poor we would perform and how guilty/not-guilty WE’d feel.
2. Not many places offer the benefits, perks, and work environment that GOOGLE offers.
Apologies for my lack of proofreading. =P
26 April 2007, 8:19 pmDhanashri:
Interesting blog! I like ur attitude towards a much-hyped google interview & the job offer.
14 May 2007, 1:02 pmnogoogler:
Don’t worry too much about being rejected by google. From my own experience with google I can tell you it is not the unique company with the talented people it wants the world to believe.
Last autumn, out of the blue I received an email from a google recruiter about a software developer position she thought I would be a good match for. I was about to finish my phd(finished now) in computer science in a completely different field than search algorithms so I never thought of applying at google myself. Still I decided to proceed the application with google because I needed a job anyway after the phd.
After a general interview I had with a recruiter I had an technical phone interview with a “tech lead” from their new york office. This is where things went wrong. The first question he asked me was: “what are the differences between c++ and java?”. Asking that to somebody with a phd in computer science??? (For those of you who don’t know c++ or java, the question is equally stupid as asking somebody with a phd in economics what the difference between capitalism and communism is).
The interview continued with some not all too well thought out questions about the topic of my phd. It were exactly the same questions my friends who never studied computer science ask me about my work. I am thinking this “tech lead” did not study computer science either.
After that there were a whole lot of small factual questions about the java(programming language) api. For example “does class X implement interface Y?” The “tech lead” was just browsing the java api docs on his pc. It does not make sense to ask these small factual questions in an interview, because the java api docs are huge, nobody remembers each class completely and class documentation can be easily lookup up if needed.
The last question was a trick question about a problem which was an analogy to the travelling salesman problem. I recognized the analogy and the trick in the question instantly. The “tech lead” saw this is no fun and stopped the interview at that point.
I took the effort of complaining to the recruiter about the “tech leads” capabilities. But I got the standard google rejection email stating “I was not a best fit for the position”. Yeah right.
This “tech lead” was not just having a bad day or just not caring anymore because he was doing his 6th phone interview that day. After having been a phd student in computer science and being having tought programming classes for years I quickly find out if a student knows his stuff or not by talking to him/her. And this “tech lead” absolutely didn’t know his stuff.
If a “tech lead” from their New York office, which must be one of google’s main offices as it is not exactly in the middle of nowhere, is that poorly skilled, what does that tell you about the company? About the people that hired “tech lead”? About the people that hired the people that hired “tech lead”?
About the supposedly smart people working at google: Maybe “tech lead” is a bad fish that slipped through the google recruitment net? Maybe the real tech leads were stuck in New York traffic so I got stuck with this guy? Or is he just afraid that with each better-than-himself person he hires his own position in the company becomes more dispensable? Possibly, however I strongly doubt the skills of the people working at google.
I have the impression from the few googlers I spoke with it is not necessarily the “best and smartest” people that are working at google, it is more like a certain kind of people that fit into their corporate culture: (a bit) arrogant, likes and pretends to be superior to others, the somewhat trendy-nerdy type you infrequently encounter at computer science faculties.
With google, it is all about keeping up the hype: in the sense of the smart people working there and in the sense of the products they make. Google does not have a critical product nobody can live without, unlike Microsoft with Windows OS. If Google search is gone today, you switch to yahoo tomorrow.
8 August 2007, 2:15 pmAdam:
@nogoogler:
Companies as large as Google get so many resume’s that they really need two or three levels of screening. First, the recruiter usually asks some very very basic questions to make sure you’re not an idiot or lying on your resume. Next, you get some technical phone interviews. These guys are supposed to be engineers… I have no idea what “tech lead” really means. In my experience they ask you lots of basic questions and then some more intermediate-level questions — and yes, some trick questions. Again, to get a handle on whether or not you really know what you claim to know and to see your thought processes.
I don’t have a PhD in CS. Just a Bachelors, and yet I managed to get past these tech interviews. Your post is very negative and lacks objectivity. If I had to guess, I would say that you were filtered out early on because of your apparent holier-than-thou attitude and open resentment about being asked a question that you think is beneath you.
In other words it sounds like you were passed on because you are “(a bit) arrogant” and “pretend to be superior to others”…
SO WHAT if he asks you a stupid question. With your PhD level knowledge, you should be able to explain the difference between C++ and Java in 1-2 sentences and then MOVE ON.
17 August 2007, 10:56 amSteve:
I went through the entire process last year. I believe a lot of luck is involved with getting an offer from Google. I am 100% sure that they turn down a lot of good applicants and on that same token, probably hire some less than ideal employees. It’s not really a big deal if you get rejected, there are plenty of jobs out there where if you are as good as you think you are, you will no doubt become successful. There’s something to being a “big fish in a small pond”. That is, in Google, you are just one of the thousands of geniuses there and it will be difficult to distinguish yourself among the masses. Start your own company or try to stand out if a place where they can appreciate what unique talents you bring. There are thousands of dot com companies that have cashed in on ideas that came from creative, although not Google caliber smarts, people.
I do believe Google will have to ease off a little on the laborious nature of their hiring process. The biggest frustration with it all is that it can take months and if you are actively seeking a job, may be forced to turn down another offer just so you can ride it out with the Google interview process. It’s especially disheartening when it turns out that you don’t get offered a job in the end. After all, Google does not have the same appeal that it had before and just after it went IPO. It’s rapidly turning into another Microsoft or IBM where employment there is not nearly as prestigious as it once was.
I agree with @nogoogler on the hype issue. Google has the killer app in it’s search engine and little else. Most of the other offerings were either purchased from other companies or could not stand on their own.
2 September 2007, 12:54 pmRalph:
Google only looks for rock-stars.
10 September 2007, 5:32 pmTechnical interviews are the perfect impossible situation. They can ask you *anything* they want which you won’t know. In the end you have to show them that you are smarter than they are in the subject about which they are asking you. Even if you answer everything correct, if they don’t feel you have the right experience you are done. It all boils down to luck and how many people you know in the group before hand.
Don:
Wow, what an interesting thread of conversation. This reminds me of a Marine (actually many), who wanted to get into the Marine Corps Officer Candidates’ school but couldn’t make it on the first attempt. However, they wanted to be the best of the best so they kept trying - never thinking that they were not good enough raw material, - just not good enough yet. Finally, they make it in and become Generals, Medal of Honor Winners, Senators, Congressman, and top CEOSm, etc. Once they were in, their motivation was so high for being in that that synergy propelled them to great things.
If Google is the best-of-the-best, and I am not saying it is, and they ask you back for some reason, (I am sure it was not pity), then you did pass their final muster because you had the guts to identify your shortfalls - and, as a famous Marine once said - “He ain’t got brains, but he’s got guts, and guts is enough.”
I was interested in this post because Google called me unsolicited and ask me if I was interested in exploring opportunities. I was taken back somewhat as I am retired Marine Corps Data Systems Officer who got an MS in Computer Science from the Naval Postgraduate School. I considered the Marine Corps tactical data systems field, and the software required, to be the best - as it is designed to kill the enemy before our Marines are killed - as the saying goes, “there is no prize for second place.” I told them I would be interested in exploring their opportunities, but I am worried about my algorithm skills also as that was way in my past. My recent experience is higher level software architecture from an enterprise perspective and getting the companies like Lockheed Martin to build stuff that works.
My advice to you is also in another saying, “Pride goeth before the fall.” And by the way, 6 months away from your girlfriend is nothing, try one year every three years for 20 years away from wife and 5 kids, and factor in getting shot at.
I think this is called perspective, and I think Google needs some people with a little of it.
Anyway, great post, and thanks for letting me talk.
v/r db
30 September 2007, 7:36 amJ.C:
Great post. And I think you did a really great thing by turning them down. You’re waiting for what you want and that’s the best you could do for yourself. But one note: It just goes to show that sometimes their assessments may cut them short of seeing a great engineer.
best of luck to you
22 November 2007, 5:19 amj.c.
Awesome !:
Dude, You inspired me. I am taking up an interview with Google and your post just gave me totally different perspectives on many fronts.
Thanks for writing this !
23 February 2008, 12:38 pmPerson:
You are an idiot.
17 March 2008, 10:55 pmYourFullOfCrap:
I actually think you made most of this story up. It is obvious that you would do basically anything to work at Google, but for some reason (not smart enough in the areas they want you to be, too weird, too cocky, not fun to be around, etc.) they didn’t think you would fit in with their people and/or what they are working on. Who cares, Google really is just another company and there is a lot of interesting work being done all over the country if you put a little time into your job search. Instead, it seems like you spend more time whining in your little blogs instead of studying algorithms, data structures, etc. like they are looking for.
So, what you were basically saying is that you want to work for Google, there are a few minor reasons why you don’t want to but you didn’t even factor these into your decision, and that you turned them down for some stupid reason like you don’t feel adequate. Belive me, if they don’t think you can do the job, they will have you out of there in less than 6 months. Then you can while about them in another blog and say you’re leaving but really it’s cause they are finally kicking you out cause you just weren’t able to hang and they couldn’t give you any more time to step up.
Yeah, if you really wanted the job you would have taken it. This means that you probably weren’t actually offerend the job but decided to post this second blog to save some face or make yourself feel superiour because you finally realized the Google thing is just not gooing to happen for you.
Sorry to be so negative, but you just seem full of crap to me.
21 March 2008, 12:27 amJustice~!:
You are in *no way* an idiot. This was a fantastic story and very motivating. I definitely hope you get to achieving your dream job @ the Goog. Subscribed!
22 March 2008, 6:33 pmVictor:
…good for you. But honesty would probably have gotten you what you wanted. If the guy really wanted you, they’d find a way to make a fit for you so the 6 months in Cali thing would not have been a big deal to shorten for him. Corps like Google, Nokia, Cisco all like you to maintain balance in your life. The guy would have respected your situation and found a workaround for you.
Anyways, Cali rules…wth u wanna live in CO for. JK…to each their own.
Good luck! ps. Google is not all it’s cracked up to be. Trust me.
25 March 2008, 12:34 amRod:
YourFullOfCrap:
I can see why this might seem made up to save face. It hadn’t occured to me when I posted it that it might come off that way. I can’t really do much to convince you, but I really did get the e-mail described, and I really did send the email I posted. *shrug*
26 March 2008, 10:57 amGoogle Interviews » Blog Archive » My Interview With Google:
[…] UPDATE: To my great surprise, this story actually wound up having something of an epilogue. […]
14 May 2008, 5:33 am